hard job

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by lutan1 on September 1, 2008 at 4:34pm

Task 1- Using heavy salvage, secure boat and trailer. At the moment, it's probably the only thing holding it all together.

Task 2- Using another heavy salvage, secure car via tow point initially so as better access can be made to the vehicle.

Task 3- Secure car properly- again probably another salvage truck.

Task 4- I'd be accessing vehicle and patients via rear window. The less time they spend suspended over the big drop, the better.

I will assume nil injuries- they appear to be at the windows anyway.

Task 5- Placing a strop around each patient, have them climb out and up while attached to a haul line for safety and assistance.

Obviously on top of all this is the scene safety stuff such as road closures, etc....

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Asst Chief Tim Cook on January 29, 2009 at 6:56pm

Never mind the trailer, the hitch is already compromised.Get a good purchase on the TRUCK trailer hitch to something heavy like a Engine or Rescue.Grade 70-80-100 chain preferred. Then back up.P/u will slide easily on it's side and allow you to get it where it's safe to work

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on May 23, 2009 at 5:54pm

It won't if there is any kind of rock flake, overhang, or other obstacle that will hook on the contact side of the truck. From the photo, you can't rule it out.

Moving wrecked vehicles with people in them is a last resort, and we aren't anywhere near a last resort situation here yet.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by paul michael komandt on April 29, 2009 at 11:46pm

I cannot agree with moving the engine or rescue to pull the truck back to a safe place to work on it. Recently went through an advanced extrication class. Using the grade 70 or higher chain to stabilize the vehicle is great. We dispatch a heavy wrecker on all big rig and tow rig accidents if we have that information.

Use the apparatus to stabilize the vehicle with the chain. Always go for the frame if it presents itself. A standard reciver winch will not cut it in this case. After the vehicle is stabilized begin the extrication of pt. Looks like they are NLT injuries but dont let them climb out on thier own, put a trained person on a life line to help them out and up the cliff.
When the wrecker gets on scene they can stabilize both trailer and vehicle to make it safer. Most wreckers are equipped with at least 2 different winches, along with pulleys to aid in direction changes

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Asst Chief Tim Cook on May 5, 2009 at 11:03pm

Sorry,you are mistaken on this.Using a tow truck IS preferred if you have one immediately available,In this PARTICULAR incident,it can be EASILY done with a 8000# reciever winch rigged 2 to 1.BTDT.
Background:45 years in the Towing and recovery field,Heavy Rescue Specialist and associate in BRR.In the event that no winch is available,recovery CAN be accomplished with a RATED chain and an Engine or heavy Rescue. You CANNOT work safely with the vehicle where it is.By merely tensioning the chain with the Engine you will find that the pickup will slide very easily and smoothly back up to the roadway. Much like a plastic Stokes on wet grass. This isn't a pipe dream.I've done this job many times with a one ton 4x4 tow truck.I've also done it as described with an Engine. Check the recievers on new pickups and their mounting,I think you'll find they are as good as a lot of frame points.Better that some of the access points you can reach in this scenerio.Oh,and before you discount a method,I invite you to practice the method on the training ground.A suitable embankment will do for this drill.Try it and let me know how you make out;WITHOUT THE WRECKER.I think you'll be surprised.If you regularly run a towing service with you all the better. But THIS job DOES NOT require a heavy wrecker.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by paul michael komandt on May 15, 2009 at 1:01pm

Can you garuntee that the hitch was not damaged in the roll, or that it has not been overloaded in the past? thats mt only thing. Can you garuntee that your wire rope is rated at 8,000#? I believe that BRR uses an apparatus as aquick means of stabilization, and not as difinitive stabilization. Don't get me wrong i know that it can be done in that way but is it the best option with a victim tha seems to be ready to get out on their own if it wasn't for the truck hanging over the cliff?

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by paul michael komandt on May 15, 2009 at 4:24pm

I don't want to try to undermind youe experience or expertise, i just had another idea.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Asst Chief Tim Cook on May 17, 2009 at 8:18pm

You'll find I'm not afraid of a challenge.To your questions: Can I guarantee the hitch? If I can see it,I can tell you real quick if I'll "hook"it.Plus I rig EVERYTHING redundant. Can I guarantee MY wire? ABSOLUTELY as I'm the only operator and we only use top grade wire changed annually. Chain fixtures:RATED assemblies on MY units and our Fire units.BRR is a cross training program GUARANTEED to open the eyes and minds of about any FD rescue/extrication technician.Goes a LOT deeper than using apparatus for stabilization.Maybe you care to work over the side of a cliff,I DON'T. And my Fire personnel would have no problem staying with the victim while recovery is in progress once the vehicle has been rigged. Not their first rodeo,and since we train together,they know EXACTLY what we're doing,why we're doing it and EXACTLY what is going to happen. As I said earlier,DO NOT try it until you've practiced the technique and do it several times. THEN come back and tell me how wrong I am. Don't get me wrong,I don't have all the answers. But I communicate with a LOT of really smart people from both the Fire/rescue AND Towing side.Would you BELIEVE me if I told you that 4-5 150-175 people could right a Schoolbus with a few pieces of rop and a few snatchblocks;BY HAND? There are people on this Forum that know the answer: I TAUGHT THEM.If you want to meet a really SMART Rescue Technician,try knocking heads with Billy Leach Jr.Lead instructor of BRR. This guy spends all his waking moments thinking up solutions just like this Boat/truck thing,then we go out to the training ground,set it up with load cells and see what it takes to pull it off.Same as we did with a LOADED mixer side rolled on a Toyota just to name a few. Feel free to have different ideas,it's how we meet obstacles. But TRY it MY way and see what happens;on the training ground. Let me know how you make out. Then meet me at BRR and we'll have some REAL fun. T.C.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on May 17, 2009 at 8:46pm

My concern isn't what happens to the trailer hitchin the position indicated, it's what happens to the patient. If you move the vehicle with the patient still trapped in it, you must be able to guarantee that you injure the patient further.

It makes more sense to me to secure the vehicle where it is, access the patient, secure the patient with fall protection, disentangle the patient, package the patient, and then raise the patient.

There is a big difference between securing a heavy load like a concrete mixer with a solid surface to work from and a dangling problem like this one.

I don't doubt for a minute that there are wreckers that could make this lift, but I can guarantee that the wrecker can't account for preventing further patient injury or death during the lift.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by lutan1 on May 17, 2009 at 9:04pm

I'm with ya' Ben- the wreckers in our area are far from trained in these techniques. I've watched gob smacked at some of the shit they do, or try to do.

The exception is the likes of TC above, who has done loads of cross training in both disciplines and works one when not volunteering for the other.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on May 17, 2009 at 9:28pm

Luke, Before I moved to the coast, I worked in the mountains for years. We routinely had vehicles over everything from a long embankment to vehicles over a cliff. I've been in situations where we had to rappel to the wreck and lower the extrication tools to the car via rope systems.

In some of those cases, the vehicle was caught under rock flakes, buttresses, or overhangs. In those cases, pulling the vehicle with a wrecker would pull the car underneath the overhang under tension until one of three things occurred:

1) The wrecker driver realized the problem and terminated the lift. The rescuers then have to try something else.

2) The wrecker driver pulls under tension until either the cable, the hook/clevis, or the purchase point on the car breaks, at which point Mr. Gravity takes over and the car has an additional plummet.

3) The wrecker driver pulls until the overhang fractures and seperates from the cliff, at which point it either smashes the car flat and shock-loads the wrecker cable or if it's heavy enough and stuck into the car, it pulls the car and the wrecker down when it keeps falling.

I've worked with wrecker drivers in a couple of wierd situations, but most of the time the wrecker drivers don't have the experience of training that TC has. If that's the case, I'm not going to trust them with the patient's life and my crew's safety unless I've trained with that particular wrecker and driver enough to build the necessary trust.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on May 23, 2009 at 5:57pm

Sorry - left out the word "not" as in "not injure the patient further".

▶ Reply to This

• First
• Previous
• Next
• Last