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Who was in the wrong?
Ok I know I’m going to catch a lot of crap for this one and probably most people aren’t going to agree with my look on this issue we had at my department but it still bothers me so here it goes…
About a month ago my department gets toned out possible barn fire, Chief arrives on scene reports a confirmed 2 story working barn repair shop fire with a second barn exposure on the C side well involved with a full size van on the A side also a exposure problem he immediately requests a full assignment from our district and a second and third alarm to be started bring in equipment from 6 other departments (mostly tankers). So I respond along with 2 other FF that where with me from about 15 – 20 minutes away considering it’s a working fire and during the week day I figure that they would have a manpower issue ( 2 of us are interiors both captains and 1 exterior probie I have about 6 years of firefighting experience and the other interior has about 30 years). We get on scene advise our chief that we are there and he is at the road doing water command and the barns are both on the ground but still burning pretty good so me and the other interior go pack up and get ready to go over to the fire since there was only 3 hand lines going. After we pack up and start to approach the barns to get orders from the commander who is standing over near the barns we are stopped by a assistant chief from 3 departments away and told they don’t need any more FF over there and we need to stand by over at the engines (mind you there are still only 3 hand lines on two barns and only about 6 FF 2 on each line and some of them went off the lines to start overhaul so some lines only had 1 person on them and also at least two of them FF’s low air alarms where going off) So we aren’t happy with his orders but stand by where he told us. About 2 minutes latter our assistant chief who was operations who was still over by the fire comes over looking for more interiors since they had low air alarms going off and others just wanted a break so then they let myself and the other interior with me go over and relieve the 2 with low air alarms while about 10 other interiors are forced to continue to stand there doing nothing when there is a lot of over haul and so on to be done. There was no other danger at the time there were no chemicals or anything like that in the barns, what was left of the barns where stable and nothing left of walls or roofs so no danger to falling debris, and so on. So I just wanted everyone’s opinion on what place this assistant chief from 3 departments away had to force all these interiors to stand by when there is work to be done and there was no orders from any one above this guy to have him do these actions he did it on his own and when someone would try and get to the scene he would physically not allow them past him… something just don’t seem right and our chiefs knew it happened and did nothing about it just said they did not order it…
About a month ago my department gets toned out possible barn fire, Chief arrives on scene reports a confirmed 2 story working barn repair shop fire with a second barn exposure on the C side well involved with a full size van on the A side also a exposure problem he immediately requests a full assignment from our district and a second and third alarm to be started bring in equipment from 6 other departments (mostly tankers). So I respond along with 2 other FF that where with me from about 15 – 20 minutes away considering it’s a working fire and during the week day I figure that they would have a manpower issue ( 2 of us are interiors both captains and 1 exterior probie I have about 6 years of firefighting experience and the other interior has about 30 years). We get on scene advise our chief that we are there and he is at the road doing water command and the barns are both on the ground but still burning pretty good so me and the other interior go pack up and get ready to go over to the fire since there was only 3 hand lines going. After we pack up and start to approach the barns to get orders from the commander who is standing over near the barns we are stopped by a assistant chief from 3 departments away and told they don’t need any more FF over there and we need to stand by over at the engines (mind you there are still only 3 hand lines on two barns and only about 6 FF 2 on each line and some of them went off the lines to start overhaul so some lines only had 1 person on them and also at least two of them FF’s low air alarms where going off) So we aren’t happy with his orders but stand by where he told us. About 2 minutes latter our assistant chief who was operations who was still over by the fire comes over looking for more interiors since they had low air alarms going off and others just wanted a break so then they let myself and the other interior with me go over and relieve the 2 with low air alarms while about 10 other interiors are forced to continue to stand there doing nothing when there is a lot of over haul and so on to be done. There was no other danger at the time there were no chemicals or anything like that in the barns, what was left of the barns where stable and nothing left of walls or roofs so no danger to falling debris, and so on. So I just wanted everyone’s opinion on what place this assistant chief from 3 departments away had to force all these interiors to stand by when there is work to be done and there was no orders from any one above this guy to have him do these actions he did it on his own and when someone would try and get to the scene he would physically not allow them past him… something just don’t seem right and our chiefs knew it happened and did nothing about it just said they did not order it…
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ashley Hampton on -
okay...if he wasnt given orders from IC...what gave him the idea that he had the right 2do this...whoever was over IC...definatly should have been an IC set up with that many depts. responding...should have been calling the shots....how would he have explained to the farmer if his house had caught on fire because only 3 lines where allowed 2 be layed????just my opion
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Permalink Reply by Reg Mathis on -
Sounds like a case of command vacum to me. If the IC issued no ops orders, then maybe the A-Chief made some needed decisions. I'm not saying his calls were right or wrong, but if the IC is not "commanding", somebody has to fill the void.
Not being on the scene, I would hesitate to second guess the A-C. Too many variables to consider each minute of the incident...I would recommend a thorough post-incident debriefing to determine where the command chain was broken. But thats just my opinion...
TCSS
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Permalink Reply by Ashley Hampton on
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thats very true also....everyone should sit down & figure out where the gap in command was @...or @ least the chiefs should
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Permalink Reply by Jeff Gaudio on -
There should be one designated OIC. This OIC shall be on scene, knowing all that's going on. That should be the officer and only officer who directs personnell to where they are needed.
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Permalink Reply by Nick Anderson on -
Yeah whoever was the senior man on the first due truck there should have been the IC, and until there was a transfer of command he would have stayed the IC. I will say about whoever the AC from 3 depts. away was that you definitely don't want people sort of running around the fireground without someone knowing what is going on and where all the personnel are. I would say that there is a little bit of wrong falling on several people. The IC for not giving clear orders and this other chief for just jumping on giving orders. This is such a delicite situation too because it is one of those things that doesn't happen very often and so there is a lot of stress and there is also a lot on the line, which only adds to the stress. That's just my two cents though. If I were you I would also be pissed Bruce, but there's no use being upset about it now, you just have to let it go.
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Permalink Reply by Paul Montpetit on
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Well, I see the confusion....#1 you report to the Accountability/Safety officer (if your fire)....#2 You take orders or assignments from the IC.....Who was running this scene...??? #3...You do as directed....Like it or not.....if something goes to hell they are the ones that will have to answer to the man afterwards.....From what I see...maybe some officers need to refresh on ICS.....I like the addage "Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way" Well stay safe, Keep the Faith.....Paul
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Permalink Reply by Sally Pierce on -
the part that sucks is that alot of times people only learn when things go wrong. if everyone was safe. job well done. if something went wrong. they learned something. debriefings come in handy but only if people are willing to take constructive criticism and say yeah we messed up it wont happen again. did someone mess up? yeah prolly? somewhere communication got messed up... maybe... or maybe someone told him to do that and isnt admitting it? who knows either way... as long as u did what u were told right or wrong? good job im glad people like you are around. some people would sit there and fight. fire scene isnt the place to do that so i congratulate u for being professional.... my opinion... =)
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Permalink Reply by Trainer on -
Sounds like a failure in ICS, where was staging and who was in charge of that? Staging is the key here and where your orders should come from.
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Permalink Reply by Oldman on -
Bruce,
I'll say there was a breakdown on the command structure, communications, ICS. But I want you to see, from a command standpoint, what you and the others were attempting to do, is freelance.
I read your post several times, and I could find nothing where you were told to report to resource. But I could also find nothing to indicate that you received orders to report to the fire. The mutual aid Asst. was I believe acting appropriately even if there were no orders from command, by holding you back. A span of control was maintained, and a sort of accountability control was in place.
If the barns were "on the ground", then you are extinguishing a big trash pile. Trash piles are not worth injury. Even with the breakdown of ICS, if everybody went home, the fire went out,and nobody got hurt, it was a success. Remember this incident for future reference, when you are in command of a similar situation.
Who was in the wrong? Everyone had a part.
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Permalink Reply by lori Tallman on -
well first of all your IC should've been the one to give you commands. He was way out of line. If anything happens like that here. We take it to higher Authority EMA director. He has the last say so. I had a county officer tell me that he didn't give a damn who I was when I told him that i was a firefighter, Actually I was trying to get to my gear which was on our pumper. He stopped me from getting to my gear but let me go on when other FF's arrived. I told my chief that he cuused at me and he took it to the Sherriff. I've not had anymore encounters with that officer and he had better hope that i never do. I would love to blast him with a hose. Anyway, I understand why it would bother you. I would suggest NIMS classes for all of your surrounding Depts. that way they know that the first unit on scene is IC and all others report to them for their commands. I know this probably doesn't solve the issue but look into the NIMS if you haven't already.
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Permalink Reply by Brian D. on -
lori, not to pick sides, but does your F.D. issue any type of official ID (badge/ID card)? Did this guy know that you were a firefighter, or is he just supposed to take your word for it? Just a thought. Stay safe!
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Permalink Reply by Jeff Gaudio on
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Well one bad thing in my area is, it's all about the power. When a higher ranking officer arrives on scene, they're still parking their car or truck & assuming command before knowing a darn thing. This is an important issue that needs improved in a lot of areas.
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