Should junior firefighters go to MVA call?

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Permalink Reply by Ron on February 11, 2009 at 6:21pm

Well as a senior firefighter/EMT, and started off as a junior firefighter. I don't think they should they can be pretty terrible. I was a jr. and went on a mva and turned out to be one of the kids i knew, it messed me up. you shouldnt see shit like that when you young.

Permalink Reply by Caleb Parker on February 11, 2009 at 6:25pm

yea thats true but my thing is that from the mva calls i have been on i have learned so much about life, by life i mean i learn if u drive reckless this is what could happen and just things like that. but also when we go to those scenes we just direct traffic

Permalink Reply by Ron on February 11, 2009 at 6:34pm

well my station were really picky about what jr's do but we do alot of training for the jrs.

Permalink Reply by Tom Priddle on February 11, 2009 at 6:34pm

I agree that Jr. Firefighters should be able to respond but they should be fully aware of the things they may see and be fully aware of the hippa laws in e.m.s.. In saying that I feel they should respond and maybe not act as the rescuer but as an assistant to the rescuer. I believe this because unless the Jr. has basically been a fire house brat growing up or nearing the end of his/her term as a Jr. and well on there way to becoming a full fledge member of a fire dept. they are probably not well trained yet and any experience that they can get as far a watching or aiding in the rescue efforts will be beneficial to the Jr's learning experience.

Permalink Reply by FETC on February 11, 2009 at 7:15pm

Here is my stance. I like explorer programs. I am an advisor. Are they needed to respond to the MVA? Does your department rely on them as manpower? If the answer is no, then your answer to this question should be NO.

Why? Been to alot of gruesome MVA's. Been to MVA's that weren't gruesome, but very dangerous. IE. the particular situation, etc. Increases the chance of suffering an on scene injury or secondary rescuer being hit by other traffic while standing back watching, all of the which the IC should not have to worry about.

Having them respond to assist is asking them to watch but don't step in. I have found that time to learn is training not during incidents. Not to mention HIPPA laws and them talking to others at school about what happened to so and so...

But like I said before, a junior program and BSA explorer program are two different things. Our BSA explorers do not respond to emergency scenes, to include MVA's.

Permalink Reply by Ryan on February 11, 2009 at 7:17pm

no because its to much liability

Permalink Reply by Willy Hodge on February 11, 2009 at 8:35pm

That is exactly why they can not go to MVA or Medical calls. Its to much of a liability issue. Since they do not hold the title as MFR, they can get into trouble for touching a patient. Plus, as others have stated, some of these calls are pretty bad. We dont want our jrs. going home and telling there friends and what have you all about it. You have HIPA to remember.

Permalink Reply by Marc on February 12, 2009 at 3:07pm

Ok here in LA we ride out to every call we get, we ride out on the Engine or Truck and go to what ever call gets recieved!!!!
I think that not letting Jr.'s/Explorers go to certian calls is stupid!!!
If they can only go on fires then when they apply to a fire dept. they will be great at fires but first timers at everything else.

Ok, so you train them in different things, but training and real life is different (and we can all agree to this)
you can teach them MVA stuff but they will never get to see how to use it in the real world.
Training is great (love to do it) but there has to be some compromise.
Let the Jr.'s/Explorers go to the MVA's but say on the apparatus until the Commanding Officer tells them they can come out and the scene has been secured.

On an EMS run: what if its a little old lady who fell down and just needs help getting up?
Sure the Exp/Jr. doesn't need to touch the patient..., but the Exp/Jr can do other things, like, help with gear and getting info from other people and crowd control on MVA's. (the Jr's/Exp's can stand on the side walk out of traffic telling people to stand back and put up caution/fireline tape up.)

I think Jr.s/Exp's should be allowed on all calls
You would let them go to a HUGE structure fire (where someone could be trapped) but not to some little old lady who fell.
This makes no sence.

Fires can be just as bad as MVA's and at times much worse.

This makes no sence, please explain!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Explorer Capt. Marc Hurwitz
Los Angeles City Fire Department

quick question: are Car fires "included" when you guys say MVA???

Permalink Reply by Mark A. Duell on April 12, 2009 at 8:59pm

Marc, First let me say I'm glad your a Jr. FF, glad you take a pride in serving others. I love seeing a young person doing something w/their life instead of wasting it. On the other hand w/no disrespect, you sound like a typical teenager. I know because I had 5 of my own all at once w/ two still in the nest. I know because I've been there myself. Adults are stupid, don't know anything and so on. Before I go any farther, I ask you as you read this to give me the same respect that I'm showing you, and treating you as a young adult.

There are many responses on here that I agree w/and are just common sense. I hope that when you are going to fires your Chief isn't letting you actually go in the structure and fight the fire! If he is, I believe he is putting your dept. in a big lawsuit if anything was to happen to you. Also I believe that the BSA has something to say about this since it is a chartered org. of theirs. I'll have to look it up and refresh myself on it though. As far as being at a fire, I don't see a big problem w/Jr.s helping with rehab and changing /filling bottles as long as they are out of danger and are being supervised. This alone is a important job and needed. There is just to many risk factors. Once you are of legal age to make that decision on your own, then go for it. You state that training and real life are different, I beg to differ. The training is invaluable and the more you do it the more it becomes second nature to you. You want to see the real stuff, its all over in videos and the internet. Do you think those men and women that want to be a Marine, a paid FF/EMT, Paramedic, and all are just allowed to march into their jobs and just start doing things. NO, they aren't going to do it till those in charge of them are satisfied with their performance and skill. Why, because this reflects on them, and if they are real about their job they are doing, they are going to want the best out their recruits.

Willy H. mentioned about HIPPA. He is right. Their are problems w/ teens, (also adults) that have a problem containing themselves from telling their friends about a call they might have been on. It boosts our ego, makes us feel important, and let others know that I'm doing something great.

As Fetc said, you become another liability, responsibility, and worry that the Chief or IC doesn't need. The whole thing is people care about you and your life. Appreciate that and respect those that are training you and their decisions. Hey, your lucky they want to have Jrs. to begin with. So, just think about what everybody is telling ya and soak it in.

By the way, Car fires are exactly that, a car fires. MVA's (Motor Vehicle Accident).

Thanks for allowing us to give you our opinions, and be patient, and please be safe brother!

Permalink Reply by Captain Busy on February 11, 2009 at 7:23pm

Junior firefighters should not go to MVA calls or any emergency response incident as a first responder. Period.

1. there is absolutely no reason to subject a young impressionable mind to the horrors that can be seen, anytime
2. the liability issues alone should be enough to answer this question
3. if the person in question is less than 18 years old, certain issues pertaining to HIPPA, patient confidentiality cannot be expected from a minor, nor enforced
4. as a company officer, I have enough to do, working with my crew, although it's certainly nice to have an extra pair of hands at times, what do you do if that individual gets hurt or killed? live with that one... anytime I have an incident on the highway, I am constantly watching out for the errant drunk, elderly or busy talking on their cell phone kind of driver that may mow us down. now factor in a young person, thrown into this very unsafe environment.

Firefighting and rescue needs to be left to those given the responsibility to serve the public, not those who want to do it. It must be earned like anything worth while. Patience is key here.

TCSS,
Mike

Permalink Reply by lutan1 on February 12, 2009 at 3:58am

1. there is absolutely no reason to subject a young impressionable mind to the horrors that can be seen, anytime
First learn rule #1

Then go back to rule #1.


They don't need to be exposed to the shit that goes with MVA's.

Same applies for EMS calls, etc.

Permalink Reply by Ken O'Brian on February 12, 2009 at 6:56am

My first MVA was a triple fatality the day before my High School (USA College?) exams started. This did not impact me, however I had grown up in a rural environment where we routinely dealt with the death of animals (pets and farmyard animals) in a non-emotional manner and had the opportunity to discuss death at various times.

Unfortunately these days farm kids are a vast minority.

It's not necessarily about how old the person is, it is how maturely a person can deal (cope?) with witnessing horrible things. Most of the guys I now work with are over 30, but show them blood and they faint. Talk to them about stuff and they turn pale.

In short, as an extreme generalization, no. Don't take juniors out to jobs that will expose them to horrible scenes. But there will be exceptions to this rule - just because they're older doesn't mean they're better prepared, and just because they're a junior doesn't mean they're ill-prepared.

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