Just my opinion and I'm stickin to it!

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Permalink Reply by Steve Netherton on November 9, 2009 at 10:43pm

Damn Sounds like your around some poorly run departments, I dont disagree with all you said but the exsplore programs (jun. firefighters ) have paid off for alot of departments. You just have to teach them right and enforce the rules.

Permalink Reply by Ernest Girardin on November 9, 2009 at 11:43pm

Tell that to the professional ,whom never put a leg lock on the ladder before he opened the nozzle and came down 15 ft the hard way on me tearing my Acl,Mcl, Pcl and miniscus . You need to redefine the term, I have in been companies that do more than 1000 runs and over a 100 jobs a year with no ems.That are vol. ,I have been taught by some of the best NY has to offer .Yes there are Idiots out there. But because someone gets a pay check does not mean your Professional. There are Chiefs and Officers that are Paid that I have known over the years that I would never go in with or trust . As for Junior programs if you run them well, have good instructors ,teach them right then you will have good future firefighters ,all the bookwork,training you do is great until your in zero visability ,and the red devil is rolling over your head while your searching a bedroom , or your on a roof and where to make your cut . The guys in Nassau and Suffolk counties will tell you its not the pay THAT MAKES YOU A PRO,and full time is just that full time alot is experience, the amount of jobs you get . and whom trains you.

Permalink Reply by Jeff Gaudio on November 10, 2009 at 12:02am

I appreciate your response. Please allow me to explain a bit clearer. I'm not saying anything about vol. depts or vol. ffs. The problem with that is that the ones who have no desire to train use that "I'm just a volunteer" line and looks bad on many other volunteers who devote their precious time to train and learn.

That's all I meant as far as that part goes. Also, there is no requirement for line officers in PA. Just a vote and now a person is an officer. I have seen good firemen get screwed who should be chief officers all because the other guy wanted that white hat and red light/siren so bad. For what reason?? One who got screwed over really bad is now a captain at a combi-station and is a state fire instructor. He is working on becomming a suppression instructor. The other guy that screwed him over has been in the dept for 20 years and had a state class about, well probably 1989.

Please understand that I'm aware that there are goofs in some paid depts and would put some vol. depts against anyone because of the knowledge of their members.

Professionalism is about the knowledge, performance, skill and ability to accomplish the work they are called to. Paid or vol.

Permalink Reply by blair4630 on November 10, 2009 at 3:15am

I've already responded so you know my opinions on the points you brought up. Just wanted to add that although I disagree with some of your points, I didn't take anything that you said to be offensive or aggressive towards volunteers such as myself.

Permalink Reply by Alan Shaw on November 10, 2009 at 12:57am

I liked your post, it made me think. So did some of the replies. So now its my turn to reply, first the numbered points.

1 – The juniors, more and more I am coming around to this point of view. I have worked with explorer posts, taken child labor seminars at the fire academy, and wrote our SOP for juniors, so this is not an opinion I come by easily. Today’s juniors are not the respectful team players that their predecessors were. The days of nothing separating juniors from firefighters except for age are long gone. They are not firefighters, yet many chief officers seem to think they are. I fear that the only way to stop this dangerous behavior is to remove the option.

2 – I can’t disagree with this more strongly. Yesterday my 100% volunteer truck company worked alongside a fully career truck company (as well as other units). The way departments are staffed must by nature be as diverse as the communities we serve. This means some places will be 100% career, others will be 100% volunteer, and most will be some variety of combination. Call volume and demographics are two of the factors that will dictate the organization.

3 – I disagree, but will say more about this in an upcoming blog entry that should be finished tonight.

4 – This is another area where there is no one size fits all answer. In my city alone we have districts like mine where it is small enough that scene responses are minimal. Our neighboring district is so large that it would delay apparatus greatly to eliminate scene responses.

5 – I am all for mandatory training. I am not sure that 16 is either enough or too much, more research needs to be done. I also favor quarterly or annual requirements over monthly one, so that one can adjust for various schedules. As volunteers we do have things like family and work to contend with, and managing volunteers requires that we be cognoscente of those factors.

6 – There is no real way to disagree with this one.

7 – This is a good idea but may be a bit too frequent. It almost sounds like a knee jerk response to a specific incident. I have been just as guilty of that myself. I don’t think annual recertification is a bad thing at all.

Now onto the rest of your points.

Safety most certainly is an issue, it just doesn’t hold the prominence that it should in some peoples minds.

Testing is only part of the equation, be it civil service or certification. Training and experience must go hand in hand. However one is qualified to be a firefighter once they are certified and are working on gaining that experience. Once we as a service have made people into firefighters, then we can set about ensuring that they are good firefighters. Sadly some will never reach that goal. In a perfect world only good firefighters would advance to become officers, but we know that the Peter Principle is at work in many departments. The problem is that there is very little command level training available on a local basis to many departments. This ultimately leads to officers that have never been shown the right way to run an incident.

While I agree that there are some out there that are an embarrassment to the volunteer fire service, I disagree that the public sees them as representative of the volunteer firefighter. Even if that is the case, it is my job to try and educate them in the correct image not to sulk away complaining that they don’t have it right.

Permalink Reply by truckeewads on November 10, 2009 at 1:20am

I'd have to say that I agree with some of your statements, as most of us on here are saying, and I understand your frustration as well. My question is, what are you doing about it? You are obviously very passionate about this subject, so go out and make a change even if it is a small one. If you can only change your deparment then fine, but If you can somehow influence others around you to become more professional, then do it. Just my opinion.

Permalink Reply by lutan1 on November 10, 2009 at 2:47am

1. All junior firefighter programs should be shut down.
Why?

2. 100% volunteer departments should close and be combi stations at the very least with a minimal staffing of four FULL-TIME professional firefighters
And whose taxes are gonna pay for that? Keep dreaming.

3. All emergency lights should be banned from ALL personal vehicles
I 100% agree with this. Coming from a country where no POV can operate any form of lights and sirens, this whole process amazes me.

4. No volunteer firefighter should be allowed to respond directly (with the exception of any chief officer) to the scene under any circumstances. You miss the truck, you miss the call...sorry about your luck
Agree with this. The esception is if you MUST pass the scene to get to the department.

5. A mandatory amount of training of 16 hours a month should be required to stay active on the roles, physical fitness training included
There also needs to be nationally agreed training topics that must be done to remain active.

6. Failure to wear seatbelts just one time should result in a 30 day suspension any other violation should result in automatic dismissal of the fire department; no questions asked
I hate this whole seatbelt debate- it's such a no brainer. Over here, you've broken the law- simple as that. Move on.

7. A written equipment familiarization test should be issued every six monthes, testing on location of equipment on the apparatus and how it works
Don't know that it needs to be written, but certainly all for tests. And the tests MUST be done from the top down. If you respond to that scene in any role/rank- you must know your shit.

Permalink Reply by Tom Wheland on November 14, 2009 at 7:59am

I have to say one topic here is really annoying me. I can't believe some people agree with "if you miss the truck to bad" theory. They must live in a district that only covers 10 square miles. My previous dept. covered "100 square miles" so what you are saying is if only 3 to 4 guys make the truck because they live next to the station and you have a working barn or house fire with people trapped inside it's there tough luck because you believe that just the 3 or 4 should respond??? Thats insanity! Can you see my piont on this you can't always have everything in black and white because we don't live in a perfect world.

Permalink Reply by Jeff Gaudio on November 14, 2009 at 9:21am

You're right.
Some departments won't be functional without their members going to the scene.

Tom, please don't take any of this toward you. You train and you're in it for the right reasons. This is mainly toward goofs and slackers who either just want to look important or to the ones who get gear and all of a sudden they feel like they have the experience & training of a ff veteran.

Permalink Reply by Bill on November 14, 2009 at 8:21am

I agree with you but it also happens at paid dept also.

Permalink Reply by Shaun Hansen on November 14, 2009 at 3:38pm

All volunteer departments should close? The fire service we have today was all started by volunteering. Its our heritage. I am proud to be a volunteer. The closest paid department we have to us is over an hour away. I pride myseld that I am a vounteer and am state certified. Most are not. Junior program are very beneficial to smaller department were turnover is high. It help spark an interest in others to possible be one day very useful to the community. Your are 27 with 12 years into this career. Sounds like you used the Junior program yourself! Seatbelt is just a no brainer. Emergency lights in personnal vehicles is not approved at our department or by the state. If you dont train then you are not eligible for relief benifits at our department. You have to meet certain requirments in order to recieve them. Training, meetings and fire calls are all part of the equation. Simple math you dont come to trainings or fire call you are not in good standings with the department and dont recieve relief benifits because of it.. As too responding to calls personally. We have 27 members on our deparment who all are a great bunch of guys who train very hard and are knowledgeable. They all bring something benifitial to the department. With that being said. We have 27 members and only 14 seats on our trucks. No tell me this, if you were at a house fire would you feel comfortable fighting that with 14 members. Or would you like to see more manpower there to assist? Now when you throw in eligibility requirement for the station. It is not fair to others just because they responded and (missed the trucks). The help is needed and they should show up. I dont care if they ride a bike, drive a car, or ride a horse. If I am in control of the scene I would like to have adequate help there. If you need to call mutual aid for help and you reject members of your department from showing up just because they have a seat on a truck, then brother you will need to use your junior program, because you will have less the next day then you did that day.
I agree with the points that you make, opinions are your to have, but the way you present them are a little harsh and a little hurtfull to others of the fire service. Just because we are not as fortunate as you to hold a position on a paid department you should shut the door in our faces. We too are trying to help the community to the best that we can and brother, we do a damn good job at it. Just ask around. You say that the some think they are the top dawgs. Maybe they are and maybe they are not, you dont know who they are personnal or what they are capable of. It sounds to me that you obviously think you are one of the those "top dawgs" otherwise you would not bring up the points you did and how you stated them. I respect every individual that sacrifices their own safety and time to assist others when the time comes. Either paid or volunteer. This is the sort of thing that puts a block wall up between the two, when so many are trying to break the barrier down for the better good of the service. We volunteers train and have the same expectations as you paid members. We just do not get paid for our service and we are on call 24/7.. Volunteers to me are the backbone of the service. If you want to see what true dedication my man look at these individuals....

Permalink Reply by Michael C. Harrison on November 14, 2009 at 4:41pm

Just some thaughts that I really need to get off my chest:

1. All junior firefighter programs should be shut down.
Why.....I see no reason in deterring young peoples interest in the fire service?

2. 100% volunteer departments should close and be combi stations at the very least with a minimal staffing of four FULL-TIME professional firefighters
Not EVER going to happen.....and that is one of the dumbest things I have heard in here

3. All emergency lights should be banned from ALL personal vehicles
Isn't that up to state law?

4. No volunteer firefighter should be allowed to respond directly (with the exception of any chief officer) to the scene under any circumstances. You miss the truck, you miss the call...sorry about your luck
I find this to be ridiculous also

5. A mandatory amount of training of 16 hours a month should be required to stay active on the roles, physical fitness training included
if training has to be mandatory .....your officers/department have already failed

6. Failure to wear seatbelts just one time should result in a 30 day suspension any other violation should result in automatic dismissal of the fire department; no questions asked
I do believe state law also covers this (no need for the complete OVERKILL)

7. A written equipment familiarization test should be issued every six monthes, testing on location of equipment on the apparatus and how it works
another blatant failure on the part of YOUR dept. YOUR officers and apparently YOU for not instilling that sense of duty in your members


This line of work is NOT taken serious enough. It is just a glorified glamour show for so many whackers who just want to look and feel important.

Safety is not an issue, very few care.
They act like they do but really don't & I see it everyday

Does everybody really know their stuff? I have seen some who are known as the elite but just proved to me that the are just smoke firemen...see smoke, spray water. Too bad it was just a burned up motor in the basement.

How many vollies are really capable of running command?
I can show you places it happens EVERYDAY....and has happened that way for well over 100 years, and going strong
I see so many who can't even speak english over the air but hey; they will be the best chief...okay there Mr. gold badge with a glorified title with a portable hanging off your hip for no reason
because there are no idiots in the career fire service right????
Bet you don't know the definition of Liability, LODD, and oh ya, a structure fire

What qualifies a "fireman" to get on the truck? Oh okay ya that vote and just a signiture on an ap reallty makes you a real fireman. Who needs training and testing to do the job? I guess FDNY has been going along so wrong over the years along with all the other departments who mandate training and testing. Nope, no need to prove yourself, just say you're only a volunteer and everything will be okay and hunkydory. It's okay if the block burns down and if your friends die. You're just a volunteer.
wow....I tried reading that last paragraph a few times trying to make sense of it....but I'm at a loss

I am so proud to be a VOLUNTEER firefighter but am so embarrassed to what the reality of it really is. I don't even admit in public that I'm a vol. fireman because they all (the public) see how volunteer firemen are. a bunch of whackers who think they are the top dawgs or something.
if the actions of others can influence you this much....I would suggest you try another profession...maybe even starting your own business so you won't have to deal with people as much

I'm sorry, I'm just a bit bitter over some things and may regret typing this later. But I'm not making this up because I'm just getting off my chest everything that bothers me that I hear every single day. How many arson fires do we have to see before it stops?
HUH?
How many useless LODDs do we have to witness before it stops?
How many more lives have to be lost because of an untrained command officer who has no business being in charge?unfortunately about as many as will die because of trained command officers that have no business being in charge......don't set yourself up for failure by thinking that just because someone has training that they become "magically" competent
Why do some have to rely on juniors in school (children) for manpower?
the same reason some placed rely on senior citizens.....and the same reason some rely on 20somethings

something has to give and I want to see improvement. I want to see less LODDs and I want to see firefighters in this job for the RIGHT reasons, other than just going real fast through red lights.
who are you to say what the right or wrong reasons are to save someones life? If someone disagrees with you are they automatically wrong?

Again, I'm not trying to be out of line but I just see too many things wrong that can be improved so easily that will save lives for both firefighters as well as the public.

Sounds like you need to find a new department.......find somewhere you can be happy (there should be many many openings if your wish of all volunteer depts going belly up ever comes to fruition )

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