Juniors and Live Fire Training

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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on November 5, 2009 at 2:11pm

Jacob,

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2006/rpt/2006-R-0772.htm -
Like New York, in Virginia a town must enact a junior firefighters program ordinance in order to have a program. Certain decisions are left up to the town, but the state establishes minimum standards. State standards require that minors age 16 and 17 must complete the Virginia Firefighter Level One training course, administered by the state Department of Fire Programs, before they are permitted to do any firefighting activities at a fire scene.

With the Level One training many towns permit 16- and 17-year-olds to respond to emergencies (including riding on an emergency vehicle to the scene) and participate in support functions at the emergency, including clean-up duty. They are prohibited from entering a burning building unless it is a non-combustible training building and they have the Level One training, which consists of 100 hours of training. If you were going into structure fires before you were 18 (with the 'minimum' training then your department was violating Virgina regulations.

As for some of the best firefighters, the ones I've seen had some years on them. Being ballsey and being skilled are two very different things. And skill is something that comes with experience. To paraphrase; "There are old firefighters and there are bold firefighters but there are no old, bold firefighters."

"But I guess we're just some of the few good 'ol corn fed boys and are use to the "you know what needs to be done so get it done" saying." Yea I hear you, Jacob. Up here in the northeast we're pretty much pussys, you know, NFPA, OSHA, safety, training, experience, that sort of crap. Good to know that down south 'ya'll just git er' done.'

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Permalink Reply by Lt. Caleb French on November 5, 2009 at 2:16pm

Good to know that down south 'ya'll just git er' done.'

Jack, you continue to amaze me : )

To paraphrase; "There are old firefighters and there are bold firefighters but there are no old, bold firefighters."

Those be words to live by!

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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on November 5, 2009 at 2:27pm

Caleb, I just calls 'em like i sees 'em.

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Permalink Reply by Jacob Whitten on November 5, 2009 at 6:28pm

We also know what NFPA, OSHA, safety, training, experience, and things like that are. Let me ask you a question- tones drop for a structure fire about 10:30 AM for your department and the next due. How many people do you get? When you pull up to a fire with 3 other guys and that's all you get for the rest of the call, come back and we'll talk.

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Permalink Reply by J Brooks on November 6, 2009 at 8:55am

That is what mutual aid is for. Or, let the damn thing burn. WE risk a lot to save a lot. WE do not go into structures just to be able to say look what I did, my helmet is smoked up or my gear is dirty. Ever hear of the OSHA 2 in, 2 out rule? Obviously your guys are working on borrowed time. It is only a matter of time before we see you on the TSL or the national news as a terrible incident LODD. As a regional coordinator for Honor Their Sacrifices, we are working to educate in order to prevent LODD incidents from happening again. This is a recipe for disaster. If you cannot see that, it is time to seek another profession.

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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on November 8, 2009 at 11:21pm

Jacob:
I'm fortunate enough that for a working fire there will be 3 engines, a ladder and 12-15 ff's within 5-8 minutes of the dispatch, with mutual aid assigned for another 1 or 2 engines and 4-8 ff's up to 10 minutes out

So no, I do not have to deal with only 3 or 4 ff's at a working fire. It would be tough to decide if we were to go offensive or defensive but regardless I would NOT be utilizing minors. Anything that happened to them would be my (or the IC's) fault and liability.

I would NOT risk a child to save another person, including a fellow ff. It just would not happen. You would risk a child (minor firefighter) to save another child? Absurd, illegal and immoral, in my opinion.

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Permalink Reply by Lt. Caleb French on November 8, 2009 at 11:27pm

There goes Jack, making sense again!

Well spoken, DT.

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Permalink Reply by Lt. Caleb French on November 5, 2009 at 2:12pm

Our department is made up of "good 'ol corn fed boys", and we follow the rules. What makes your department any better?!

Just because your department constantly breaks the rules and gets away with it, doesn't mean that it isn't gonna rear its ugly head and bite you square on the ass.

Good luck when it does.

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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on November 8, 2009 at 6:39pm

I will also say that when I did make entry I was always following or backed up by someone that had years of experience and I felt safe with.
I assume that, since in your eyes the best firefighters on your department are between 17 and 21, you were following or being backed up by someone in that age group?
In addition, I would expect you to make that claim, especially since you fall within that age group. A bit jaded aren't we?
Because I have trained with hundreds of firefighters from as many departments and the BEST seem to be in that 25-35 age group. The best of the best are older.
In conclusion, what is it exactly that qualifies you to judge the qualifications of other firefighters?
Just askin'...

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Permalink Reply by Lt. Caleb French on November 8, 2009 at 10:44pm

I would like to see this reply as well.

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Gaudio on November 8, 2009 at 10:58pm

me too!

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Permalink Reply by FETC on November 5, 2009 at 2:31pm

The explorers we have are not allowed. BTW: This has been beaten to death on FFN.

The difference in arguement is some departments run a JUNIOR firefighter program which is homegrown, (home grown policies with/or without their incurance companies knowledge) and others run an EXPLORER program which is covered under the BSA rules/regs/insurances.

EXPLORER programs do not allow live fire training...

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