Juniors and Live Fire Training

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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on November 4, 2009 at 5:19pm

Nope.

BTW...it is what and your

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Permalink Reply by Robert T. Marchetti on November 4, 2009 at 5:43pm

In Pennsylvania, Our Junior Department members range in age from 14 to 18 and under NO CIRCUMSTANCES do they do live fire burns training or otherwise. However they can man live fire lines outside the structure.

At the age of 18 they can apply for membership in the Senior Department, however, being a junior does not automatically mean you will be accepted into the Senior Co.

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Permalink Reply by Oldman on November 4, 2009 at 5:52pm

We do not under any circumstances allow Junior members to participate in any live fire training, nor are they allowed to have patient contact, or operate on the fireground other than to assist command or rehab. Once our Junior members reach 18, then they may complete their live burn training.

Federal Child Labor laws govern what activities are and are not allowed. Placing a minor in a known hazardous environment is against the law.

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Gaudio on November 4, 2009 at 6:15pm

Your department is allowing a bunch of All Bad!
I understand you wanting to train and move up and I respect that. But your department is being neglegent as hell as well as being flat out stupid by letting juniors go into burns.

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Permalink Reply by Fireyladd Chief Sharp on November 4, 2009 at 6:30pm

Sorry Jeff, but let me add another perspective. We bring in our Jr Firefighters into a live training burn under restricted and controlled circumstances. Usually there is a large room or area where we put the JR's in complete PPE and with SCBA. They are brought into this large room and sit near the exit or doorway with our regular certified firefighters manning two hose lines accompanying them with an officer. We set a fire in the opposite corner of the room from them and allow the fire to get to flash-over stage then extinguish it. This gives them a feel and understanding of what we are doing and some training. Of course we do not put them into a training burn on a line or crew attacking a fire. They are not allowed to fight interior fire nor would we allow it. But to imply or conjecture that your department is being negligent as hell as well as being flat out stupid by letting juniors go into burns. is extremely short sighted and unqualified to make this statement. What Fire agency A does and Fire agency b does not do is only based upon their on policy and procedures AND State law. So David, we do allow our JRs to be involved with our live burns on a limited and controlled basis. Your Department obviously allows this to happen under its OWN procedures and guidelines. Obviously not by Jeffs opinion!

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Permalink Reply by J Brooks on November 4, 2009 at 6:43pm

Chief, I agree 100% with Jeff. In Ohio, we are not even allowed to put SCBA on members until they have training. You cannot even go to training until you are 18 for fire certifications. As a state instructor, I would never allow this to happen under any circumstance. I do not care how far away these juniors are kept from the actual fire. I do not care how controlled the situation is. Tell that to all the families who visti the name of their loved ones on the NFFM wall that things were controlled. As much as we would all like to believe that we can control training situations, we are working with live fire. Fire is a living, breathing thing. It changes unpredicatably at times. I think that allowing juniors to train is admirable and a great tool to keep them involved. Most importantly here, this is a complete and blatant violation of child labor laws. They cannot be firefighters for a reason. They should not be actively participating in an IDLH environment.

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Permalink Reply by Irons38 on November 4, 2009 at 7:40pm

J Brooks, you hit the nail right on the head. 20 years ago things were different, there werent these laws in place. Wether you are a OSHA state or NFPA state. Both say the same thing. Absolutely no circumstance will minors be involved inside a live fire training excersize.
I respect your departments motivation to train and give those KIDS a taste of what they will be doing when they come of age to be certified and qualified to do interior work. Its 2009, no disrespect, but its time to get with the times. I hope your department will re evaluate what your SOPS/SOGS are in regaurds to juniors and live fire training.

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Permalink Reply by penrhyn on November 8, 2009 at 1:03am

Can you give me the OSHA Regulation Or the NFPA Standard that deals with minors being involved in live fire exercises? Or more to the point expressly prohibits it.

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Gaudio on November 4, 2009 at 9:09pm

It's not my opinion, I'm saying what the law is in my state. Jrffs can't even have an scba on during live fire burns. Anyway, if they can't even fight fire until they're 18, why put them into a burn? There's so many exterior jobs that they can learn before they should move onto the interior end of it.

again, not my opinion, LAW.

I guess juniors should have blue lights and be qualified to run for office too.

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Permalink Reply by Steven on November 5, 2009 at 3:10pm

And when that flashover is too hot to handle or some junior firefighter doesn't have his/her gear on right or Murphy's Law comes into play, you better have a REALLY good attorney...

Even firefighters with 20 years experience still get hurt in training revolutions. Why risk injuring a kid for life just to give him or her the experience of what it is like to be inside a burning room?

There is so much a junior FF can do outside of the burn structure. Show them pumping operations, truck placement, rehab, scene safety, arson awareness... Our fire explorers often help out in fire prevention presentations at schools. They participate in firematic competitions going right up against career teams. They are involved in drills but they are there more to observe than to interact. They can carry power tools but can't start them. They can carry ladders but not climb them. They can ride apparatus IF they aren't taking the seat of an interior FF.

They can not respond to EMS calls or MVA's due to HIPPA privacy issues.

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Permalink Reply by Michael Rocke on November 4, 2009 at 6:38pm

Our insurance will not allow anyone under the age of 18 to be inside a burning structure....period.

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Permalink Reply by David lord on November 4, 2009 at 8:55pm

When we do this we our in full ppe and have on an scba there are two safety lines in place and we are accompanied by an officer or firefighter at all times

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