Flashover, what the hell were they thinking?

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Permalink Reply by rfdjumper on December 11, 2008 at 5:52pm

I have watched the video, it appeared the brother was performing VES. Then I readthe brothers account from Indy. After reading, I agree with his decision. He had a report of a trapped individual, the time of day indicated there was a good chance someone was in a bedroom, his initial survey of the room indicated life could still be viable. The fact that he couldn't get the bedroom door closed lead to his quick egress as the fire advanced towards the fresh supply of air.

To those who say that there should of been a line or that building looked like a defensive attack, or ladders should of been footed or the climbing angle this or that. Yo! SDASTFU! Textbook doesn't always work in real life.

Learn how other people do business in the industry. Most larger city departments don't carry water on an aerial. The truck companies don't wait for the Engines to arrive for companies to start doing work. If you don't feel comfortable doing VES, then don't.

Stay Safe!

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Permalink Reply by chris pietsch on December 12, 2008 at 2:45pm

The fire officer that made the entry and then bailed commented on the video on www.vententersearch.com. He said the fire we see in the window is actually in the hallway outside the room. He also said he tried to get across to the door to close it but never made it. Its an intersting read if you can find it.

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Permalink Reply by Allen Wahlstrom on December 12, 2008 at 4:32pm

its actually reprinted here on the second page of comments

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Permalink Reply by Chris on December 12, 2008 at 6:05pm

http://www.fox59.com/pages/landing/?Unprecedented-firefighter-study...

"On Memorial Day morning veteran Station 10 firefighter, Captain Rick Van Sant, came within a second or two of making the ultimate sacrifice.

Van Sant survived a flashover and while escaping from the Temple Avenue home his heart rate was actually lower than his fellow firefighters who were watching his attempt to save a woman who was said to be trapped inside."

Clearly was a flashover.

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Permalink Reply by Tim on December 14, 2008 at 12:22pm

That's a very lucky fireman right there. This is why the truck company always needs to throw up the portables when they're dumping in to search. This is a clear prime example of why it's a good thing to always have portables up.

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Betz on December 14, 2008 at 2:58pm

I read the explanation and watched the video, but it still doesn't add up for me...sorry. I have been wrong before, and maybe I am again here, but it just doesn't seem like a great call. Again, sorry.

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Permalink Reply by Tim on December 14, 2008 at 3:16pm

I don't even see any evidence of the engine company making a push on this. or any lines hitting the fire.

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Permalink Reply by Engineco913 on December 14, 2008 at 3:22pm

I have watched this video quite a few times. Each time I watch the video, I try to monitor a different situation. (FF actions, smoke conditions, fire conditions) I suggest each of you do the same.

I feel that while we all have the benefit of sitting behind our computer screens and knowing the outcome, the Captain who made entry (from Indy FD who see's well more than enough fire to call him a seasoned Jake) did so on the premise that there was a victim entrapped in the bedroom he entered. The fire behavior shown at that time is that the fire is just beginning to roll a little into the room as he made entry. (ordinarily considered a workable atmosphere) He entered the room from the window to close the door and afford more time to do a complete search on the primary area where the potential victim was at that time of night.

Why didn't he have a hose line? Whens the last time during a primary search that you brought one in? Known trapped victims usually means you have a primary S&R team with NO hoseline making a RAPID search (usually with a TIC) while the firefighters arriving on scene are beginning fire suppression. (should conditions warrant as in this case it should have)

I would be inclined to believe that a section of ceiling fell or a interior wall fell causing the fire to rapidly deteriorate the conditions to the level they did so unexectedly.

If I were that Captain today, based on those conditions and AFTER reading this forum post, I would be inclined to do the search. I don't have a death wish, not do I want to get hurt. I simply want that victim (who if they are on the floor would have first and second degree burns at most and most likely alive. Read the smoke!!!) to make it out alive. Like the Captain in the video, closing the door and adding a barrier between the fire and the primary search area will give more time and improve the conditions temporarily in the room to accomplish the mission.

Instead of calling this Captain "an Idiot" or any other name, put yourself in his shoes. Break down each aspect of the video and write notes on that 1 aspect. It takes more than 1 quick view to understand whats going on. He acted base on his YEARS of INTERIOR STRUCTURAL FIREFIGHTING experience and based on the conditions that existed at the time.

For all the nay-sayers, how much smoke came from the window when he popped the glass using the ladder? (pretty much 0) That fire's rapid growth fed by the fresh oxygen caused the close call, not a stupid decision.

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Permalink Reply by Jim on December 16, 2008 at 10:37am

Uhhhhhhhhhh was this a video version of a photo shop stunt??? wowwww

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Permalink Reply by Don Crooks on December 17, 2008 at 12:06pm

WTF is right, First thought that came to my mind is it appears to me that the dept. involved could use some refresher training in carrying/placing ground ladders, it looked like it took a little longer than usual. Without being critical, the room was "glowing" when the first firefighter entered the room, in that kind of heat I doubt seriously that anyone inside the structure without turnouts or respiratory protection would be alive, I probably would have not sent the firefighter into room. With that said, I wish to commend his bravery and I am thankful to God above that he was not seriously injured, that goes for everyone on the fireground!

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Permalink Reply by Steve Dykema on December 18, 2008 at 8:06pm

When I first watched the video, I was amazed they went in. It is clear to me, wheather it is a flashover or not, the room is not survivable. I recently attended a class in my area, they talked about the temps where a human body can survive. In the class, they said bare skin can withstand 300* for a very short time. The respiratory system can only take 165* for a very short time. To me, the temps in the room, even on the floor, are well above that.

It would seem the department not only needs flashover and sizeup training, but more control on the fireground.

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Permalink Reply by Michael Fish #89 on December 18, 2008 at 8:57pm

At the point where the room flashed and the first firefighter bailed out of the window, at what point in time does the second firefighter decide to drop his tool and grab his buddy and help get him out of a bad situation. He did nothing but stand there in the way. He didnt really try to help his buddy out, if I was in that situation, grab my a** and drag me out, i I fall...I'll still thank you later.

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