Five Minutes in the Streets: "Heavy Smoke Showin.."

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Permalink Reply by Chad Furr on March 15, 2009 at 10:27pm

OK Here is my observations. Non Hydrant area, FIrst due. I am not an officer so would let dispatch know we need mutial aid ASAP. Roll tankers and maybe 1 more pumper. IF enough ppl showed up (min3) estb. a line and send 2 into front door just far enough to size it up and make a real fast search. Set up dump tank. Have engine ready for fist load of water and have the other 2 with me start a defensive attack to save adjoining houses. We are lucky to have 5 ppl show up for a house fire so there would be NO way we could save this one. This is a sad thing to say I know but hey what can you do with limited resources and not get ppl hurt or worse?

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Permalink Reply by Captain703 on March 16, 2009 at 8:01pm

I'm going with non hydrated and I'm OIC (this is most likely for us)

Right off the bat we have 1 engine (E71 1,000 gals.), 2 tankers (T73 3,000 gals. and T74 2,000)

A crew of 4 on E71 and 2 on both tankers.
Engine 72 with 1 person will automatically go to the nearest water supply and set up to fill tankers.

Upon arrival I will report a 2 story residential structure with heavy smoke and fire showing and start mutual aid for Tankers and manpower from at least the next 2 closest depts. as well as EMS for possible victims and rehab. I will assume command and call for elec. company to shut off the power to this home.

2 from E71 will advance a 1-3/4 line through the front door and start fire suppression.
T73 will drop his dump tank in front of E71 to keep the road clear for incomming units and dump his water and go leaving his passenger at the scene.
T74 will also dump and go leaving his passenger at the scene.
If conditions inside permit, the 2 from the tankers will do a quick search of the house.
As more manpower arrives, a more detailed search will take place as well as a RIT team in position.
The garage is kinda freaky because you have no idea what is stored in there, so if possible keep the fire out of the garage.

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Permalink Reply by Tom Bouthillet on March 18, 2009 at 10:40am

Marginal fire. Lightweight construction. 360 degree evaluation with utility control if possible. PPV fan at the front door. Primary search with 1 3/4" hose line. RIT. Protect exposures. Transition to defensive. In and out in < 10 minutes. Surround and drown.

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Cole on March 19, 2009 at 4:06pm

Some comments on some comments. First, just becouse a particular hose size isn't "preconnected" does preclude it from use! That is a perfect example of the preconnect syndrome. Most engines have a large hose bed in the read as well, correct? Why consider pulling an ineffective line just becouse it is preconnected? How simple to break and connect, right? No offense. Second, PPV? I shudder everytime I hear those letters used together, especially with this scenario. If you want to push the fire all through the dwelling and burn it down, then that is fine.

The smoke condition is about what is to be expected, considering the type of furnishings today, along with structural componants and vinyl siding.

My risk assesment is possible life hazard that needs to be addressed, a rapidly extending fire that seems to be at this point containable, with marginal chances for knockdown within the five minute time period, providing a large enough hoseline can get to the seat of the fire. Looks to be either a kitchen area just ahead of the garage. Occupants above the fire are a priority as the fire and smoke are likely filling the second floor. It appears to be auto-extending into the upper floor, which is likely a bedroom. Fire is visible behind the dwelling "C" side as well. Again, likely lightweight construction, so we have an immenant collapse hazard along with concealed voids and fire travel.

Command post established and identified, size-up announced. Additional alarms struck, along with EMS, police, and utilities companies.

As engine company ops vary from area to area, etc, suffice it to say establish a water supply. Hydranted area will have the first-due engine make a forward lay if warrnted, to just past the "A" side, leaving room from the truck company. Entry will be forced, if required, and a "big line" will be stretched from the "A" side. Grage will be opened, with the garage door disbaled, and pulled down (if lightweight) to ensure it does not close or fall on firefighters.

The smoke at the foundation looks to be just drop-down from the siding and such, which looks to be possible mulch burning, and not a basement fire.

The engine company will approach from the unburned side, as stated, the "A" side, with a big line (2.5") which is necessary to confine the rapidly-spreading fire. Too small of a line, regardless of mobility, will NOT be enough gpm to slow this fire down.

The truck needs to get the area closest to the fire searched first. The "A" side can be used for VES with a ground ladder above the garage area. The utilities, especially the gas need to be shut asap, and can be done with a truck company. Second-due engine will establish a secondary water supply, and be sent to the floor above, pending the progress report of the first engine company. A RIT will be established as well.

Access to the roof with an aerial looks to be unobstructed. Vertical vential above the fire will be assigned.

The first engine will need to cut off the fire and keep it from the interior stairs. This will protect the truck members while searching. All sides will be laddered, with the locations announced. The first two hoselines should contain this fire. However, if no progress is made within the five minute period of the first line in operation, withdrawl will be considered. Truck company personnel will use TIC's in their searches for life as well as fire extension.

This fire may be considered "doubtful" if the fire cannot be confined and contolled by the first two lines. The five minute mark will be the benchmark to consider going defensive.

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Permalink Reply by Tom Bouthillet on April 10, 2009 at 4:15pm

"PPV? I shudder everytime I hear those letters used together, especially with this scenario. If you want to push the fire all through the dwelling and burn it down, then that is fine."

How do you figure that, Jeff?

The fire will move from an area of higher pressure to an area of lower pressure. In other words, out the vent holes, not "through the dwelling." It will take the smoke with it, increasing the probability of a successful rescue.

Just because you aren't comfortable with it doesn't mean it doesn't work.

Tom

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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on April 12, 2009 at 7:55am

In this case, the fire has autovented and has an obvious opening to the exterior. As long as that opening isn't on the upwind side in a high wind that will overpower the fan, PPV or even PPA is an acceptable tactic here.

In this case, the PPV/PPA will tend to compress the smoke into the area of origin. The fire showing on the Delta side will intensify, but it's going intensify outside where there's no close-proxmity exposure except for Division 2. The way to prevent that from happening is to attack immediately through the better visibility area the fan gives and hit the fire hard and fast before it autoexposes the upstairs.

There are risks to PPV/PPA, just as there are risks to groping toward the fire in heavy smoke or in trusting a thermal imager to see every hazard on the interior.

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Cole on April 10, 2009 at 5:01pm

Considering newer, lightweight construction and the use of wooden truss floors and roofs, as we experience here, I would not (me personally) attempt any PPV efforts. Time and again the use of PPV in heavily involved frame dwellings has resulted in pushing/spreading the fire well beyond the initial area of involvement upon arrival. It may work for a single room and contents fire, isolated ina specific corner of the dwelling. Too many things need to be in place and that includes the optimum opening on the discharge side.

I would rather committ my companies to stretching and advancing the heaviest water line, with the truck company members opeing up and perfroming the search.

I am NOT comfortable with it in this scenario, which is why I would not use it. Personally I don't think we can manipulate the fire in this type of situation and expect it to do what we want it to do. The fan placement has to be ideal as does the ventilation choice. I stand by my reasoning that it will only serve to increase the fire's intensity and spread quicker. If that would be your choice and it would work, and has worked in similar situations, then there is nothing wrong with it. My words are my opinion, that is all.

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