Firefighting & Rescue Social / Professional Network
Fire Fighter I and II GODS
Last year we provided the fire fighter I and II course for our fire fighter to assist them in their education. We found that as soon as the fire fighter passed they got the GOD actions. They got paid job and didn't look back. As the training officers I feel they used the district for the courses our department paid for, and paid them to attend. All but two fire fighters out of the 8 personnell have moved on. It is not that they bettered them self, I is the way it was done. I want to remind all to member were you started. there is things I am prood to say, is we train more then any dedartment in two counties, and when we show up on scene we are asked to help with IC or opion on the issues at hand, by the other Volunteer departments but the paid department act stand offish to us, as they do to all the voluteer departments. What is the differance between Voluteer and paid department? It is what they do between calls. We have paid jobs, and train often, we do not drop the course if we get a call, we start where we left off at in the next training meeting. We used to training about three days a week, and reg. meeting are every two weeks. We have had a decress in attendance at training and meetings.
During the summer we do a lot of public events, so we do less training in summer. Other then summer we train three day a week.
Q. What do we do to keep the Fire Fighter I and II trained personnel and work with the GOD actions?
Q. How do we work better with the paid department GODs?
During the summer we do a lot of public events, so we do less training in summer. Other then summer we train three day a week.
Q. What do we do to keep the Fire Fighter I and II trained personnel and work with the GOD actions?
Q. How do we work better with the paid department GODs?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by R. Ann Balmer on -
Yes I miss them and wish they didn't leave. One of the ff I & II 5 years was best of freinds until he stated with this paid departmentleft due to needed employment, and we found out that there is some bad things being said about our department, there not about one member but as a hole department. The fire fighter told us this him self, and one of them quit this paid department because he was tied of the statement being said and called this morning said he was sorry for bad mouthing us and wanted to rejoin our department. I don't understand why it bugs me so, this one department talks bad of everyone. It's just the department.
I worked as a paid fire fighter for 18 years on two and the two fire departments made fun of volunteer departments. never could see the reason for it. And now as a Volunteer, still don't see the reason.
The other ff I & II are new to the fire service, since the course has steped on the cheif aqnd my self feet by doing there own thing on scene, with out looking at the full picture and caused problem.
When I take them a side I have gotten the statement that I know what I am doing. I have to explain that their are so many differant tatics that can be use, that each sene is diferant and you have to look at the whole picture the Operation officer will direct you on what to do. They did not like the fact so they left. So this is what I was refuring to by GOD action. Sorry I didn't tell the whole story.
The two that stayed on with us are doing great and are now taking office course to get ready for promotions.
We have a regular turn over about every three years because most of our personnel are milary families.
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Permalink Reply by Brian "Moose" Jones on -
Sounds to me from this post, that you have more of a problem with the IC system and the crews following orders or just freelancing. You need to have a clearly explained set of SOP's that detail the IC system, the implementation of it at scenes, and the clear identification of the IC, Ops chief, Safety Officer and all the way down to group leaders. Every group needs a radio (If not every firefighter), and the tactics the IC chooses needs to be clearly addressed and understood by all officers on scene.
Freelancing is a dangerous thing and needs to be put in check immediately, with aggressive punishments to make it abundantly clear to all that you need to receive orders from an officer before doing anything, and that freelancing will not be tolerated.
The bottom line of being a firefighter is the desire to help others. If you train people that goal should always be in your mind, and that regardless of where the firefighters end up, they are helping someone somewhere, and if they are honorable enough they will remember who got them there and where their training came from.
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Permalink Reply by Station10Capt106 on -
There will be high turn over in a volunteer department. That is just a fact. You will have some dedicated diehards but you will also have an assortment of people who either:
1) try it out and decide that it is not right for them
2) try it, like it, but "life" gets in the way and they have to move on for one reason or another
3) Use it as a stepping stone in their career path
I expect that for every 5-6 new members we get on only 1 or 2 will still be with us in a year or two, especially the younger members who are not tied down as much geographically to an area. Those that you have trained and stayed will become valuable assets on your department. Those you have trained that moved on to other departments (paid or vol) will hopefully become valuable assets on their new department. Remember, your department could just as well be on the receiving end of another departments training. Someone new moves into the area and wants to get on your department that has just completed their FFI/II training somewhere else.
It all comes around full circle sooner or later. Train everyone to the best of your ability and make sure they are competent firefighters. They will either serve your community or another community, but the key is to make sure they are trained to serve.
Best of luck to you,
John
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Permalink Reply by R. Ann Balmer on
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Thank you.
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Permalink Reply by rfdjumper on -
In my career class of 10, 9 had a volunteer background, 1 was retired from another paid department, 8 were trained to National Fire II. Of the 10, I believe only 2 are still active volunteer firefighters. Why? Since you asked the question I'll enlighten you. Could it be that they are sick of the Vollietics (Volunteer Politics). Could it be they are now Union figherfighter and they are NOT allowed to volunteer anymore (though some still do). Could it be that they have family or other obligations which prevent them from keeping the dedication to your department.
Q1- Recruit, and Recruit more, attrition is not a new concept in the volunteer ranks, it is commonplace. If your department wants to keep a tight reign then don't pay for training till after a year, or some predetermined time.
Q2 - Lose the chip on your shoulder about career departments. When the boss tells you to do something then do it. Paid guys don't want to sit around at a room and contents for 5 hours because all the jobs aren't done or can't be done. So if you are asked to go to the roof and cut a hole, I'm afraid of heights is the wrong answer, the correct answer is consider it done.
Just remember 1 thing. Every department (Paid and Volunteer) THINKS they are the best in their area. You don't hear a fire department say "We suck" and "We can't put out fire". It's alright to believe that your department is the best, just know that it most likely isn't true.
Good luck in your recruitment adventures
and congrats to the brothers that got hired in career departments
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Permalink Reply by R. Ann Balmer on
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I have a lot of repect for paid fire fighter because I was one for 18 years but as a paid fire fighter at the time the staff at the two paid departments I was on, made fun of voluteers. Never got the reason for it. I feel we all can learn from each other instead of making jokes. Our department states that we can not make rude jokes toward another department. Yes was wrong in what I typed. Sorry venting abit! Yes we all work very are! We don't have unions here in my area but we should have.
My point is and I was not clear on, was how can we work togather better, I am now a volunteer.
Great Idea on delaided pay. We are a small department and have came a long way and what to advance I will say that we have a lot to learn.
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Permalink Reply by R. Ann Balmer on
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Yes I miss them and wish they didn't leave. One of the ff I & II 5 years was best of freinds until he stated with this paid departmentleft due to needed employment, and we found out that there is some bad things being said about our department, there not about one member but as a hole department. The fire fighter told us this him self, and one of them quit this paid department because he was tied of the statement being said and called this morning said he was sorry for bad mouthing us and wanted to rejoin our department. I don't understand why it bugs me so, this one department talks bad of everyone. It's just the department.
I worked as a paid fire fighter for 18 years on two and the two fire departments made fun of volunteer departments. never could see the reason for it. And now as a Volunteer, still don't see the reason.
The other ff I & II are new to the fire service, since the course has steped on the cheif aqnd my self feet by doing there own thing on scene, with out looking at the full picture and caused problem.
When I take them a side I have gotten the statement that I know what I am doing. I have to explain that their are so many differant tatics that can be use, that each sene is diferant and you have to look at the whole picture the Operation officer will direct you on what to do. They did not like the fact so they left. So this is what I was refuring to by GOD action. Sorry I didn't tell the whole story.
The two that stayed on with us are doing great and are now taking office course to get ready for promotions.
We have a regular turn over about every three years because most of our personnel are milary families.
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Permalink Reply by R. Ann Balmer on
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Yes I miss them and wish they didn't leave. One of the ff I & II 5 years was best of freinds until he stated with this paid departmentleft due to needed employment, and we found out that there is some bad things being said about our department, there not about one member but as a hole department. The fire fighter told us this him self, and one of them quit this paid department because he was tied of the statement being said and called this morning said he was sorry for bad mouthing us and wanted to rejoin our department. I don't understand why it bugs me so, this one department talks bad of everyone. It's just the department.
I worked as a paid fire fighter for 18 years on two and the two fire departments made fun of volunteer departments. never could see the reason for it. And now as a Volunteer, still don't see the reason.
The other ff I & II are new to the fire service, since the course has steped on the cheif aqnd my self feet by doing there own thing on scene, with out looking at the full picture and caused problem.
When I take them a side I have gotten the statement that I know what I am doing. I have to explain that their are so many differant tatics that can be use, that each sene is diferant and you have to look at the whole picture the Operation officer will direct you on what to do. They did not like the fact so they left. So this is what I was refuring to by GOD action. Sorry I didn't tell the whole story.
The two that stayed on with us are doing great and are now taking office course to get ready for promotions.
We have a regular turn over about every three years because most of our personnel are milary families.
Sorry I was venting and did say what i realy needed to say for ya all to understand the issue
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Permalink Reply by FETC on -
OK this is what we call transient firefighters. The ones who are go getters, and motivated to learn are more than likely to train and test for paid jobs. So you will never stop that from happening unless you decide to never train them to a certification level.
Maybe institute a certain time frame that they must remain an active member for the reimbursement of the classes. This is not unheard of in paid departments. If a firefighter takes a paramedic class and it is 100% paid for it costs upwards of 20K per guy. We have a three year agreement or they must pay for the cost of the class and the materials if the contract is broken. You can't legally retract pay for hours in which they actually worked taking the class.
Furthermore, I am more interested in your second question, and that may be related to your original problem and that is if you are having problems retaining firefighters after achieving certification, then possibly it could be a problem within your organization. Meaning, how you treat them, train them and are they now working for less trained officers? If they never use their skills, they can become bored as well. So they search for more avenues to experience the fire service.
But I would like to know why you seem to have a problem with PAID FIRE DEPARTMENT GODS? What the heck kind of terminology is that. Seems right up front that you are jealous or have a position of distaste. Maybe if they are a neighboring fire department, they are tired of working with non-certified firefighters during mutual aid operations.... and that at times can come accross stern and interpreted as GOD LIKE mentality.
Training certification alone is NOT COMPARABLE. Sorry, but I have said it before in about 10 other threads that firefighter 1/2 training in a volunteer and paid are yes, the same on paper, but the training from an everyday standpoint of a paid guy adds up to thousands of hours of more education, experience and exposure to your equipment, policies, procedures, building familiarization, fire alarm systems and testing, and responding on every call in which your are toned to for live hands on experience.
I understand your operations officer comment, but I have volunteer fire chiefs around us that their fire certifications do not meet the qualifications of my probie.
Sorry while the volunteer is learning his/her trade, profession, or career choice of his own, he is missing out on the same amount of time learning the little things about the fire service that add up to a highly trained and efficient jake.
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Permalink Reply by R. Ann Balmer on
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You go! get all the training you can! for thows who want to training there is a lot out there to learn. some think that stoping at ffI and ffII is all they need. I fill being a cert junky is a great way to go. I makes safer and higher trained staff.
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Permalink Reply by R. Ann Balmer on
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sorry for the mis spelled I am talking, typing, and passsing off paperwork
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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Dave,
My point exactly. I have discussed the fact that on paper they are the same. It is what you do for additional training that keeps you up to speed, efficient and progressive.
Sorry, but fulltime guys have more opportunity to train while being paid everyshift as compared to a volunteer. I am not bashing anyone here, I spend more time training volunteers than paid guys. I am just stating facts as I can pull the training hours from our firehouse software on any paid guy working here and then from one of our call firefighters and the actual training hours and experience are "hundreds" off per year.
If you precieve that as "god like mentality" then that is sad. Ride time during a FF2 class with a paid dept and actually training everyday while being paid throughout your career are simply not comparable.
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