Firefighting & Rescue Social / Professional Network
Extrication SOP question from an EMS "dipchit"
Well, I have a question for all of you yellow canaries out there. (sorry, the local funnin-pick on term for FF`s)...
Is it common pratice to have a line pulled and maybe even charged at a MVC?
I ask the question tongue in cheek. In my last 2 years back in EMS, I have run on several MVC`s with a particular local FD. They are the self proclaimed "best FD in the region". They happen to cover the city in which I live. In each MVC that I have worked with this FD on scene, I have yet to see a line even pulled off an engine. I`m not talking about the little fender bender, someone stopped at a red light and the guy behind didn`t. I`m talking tool jobs. A SUV asspacks a Ranger at 65 MPH and sends it into the woods 30 yards. Head-on at highway speed. Antifreeze, tranny fluid, gasoline all over the road.....You know.."that" kind of MVC. Jobs where the FD is cutting the roof off or the rollover into a ditch......
Is it common SOP to at least pull a line? Maybe even charge that line? I have run with several other departments in the region, all have pulled a line before the IC lets us approach the vehicles that are crashed. Maybe my local FD knows something the others don`t. They are afterall, the BEST in the region. Just ask them.
Now, I fault command for my tongue in cheek question. To the man, the guys are great. When we have called for assists from this FD, they guys again are fantastic. The ones that show up, the ones that seem to "be better than everyone else" only show up at fires. As an orginazation, it treats EMS or rescue/EMS in general as idiots. Many many times I have witnessed NON medically trained personell tending to patients in cars while we are told to stand back. Yes, we have full PPE.
From what I have read, a line is called for in the situations I explained. Am I wrong here? It`s MY ass there on the road exposed to the hazzards. Not only mine, my PATIENT`S as well.
I know I`m just pissing up a tree here, Nothing I can do to fix my concerns. Any ideas?
Is it common pratice to have a line pulled and maybe even charged at a MVC?
I ask the question tongue in cheek. In my last 2 years back in EMS, I have run on several MVC`s with a particular local FD. They are the self proclaimed "best FD in the region". They happen to cover the city in which I live. In each MVC that I have worked with this FD on scene, I have yet to see a line even pulled off an engine. I`m not talking about the little fender bender, someone stopped at a red light and the guy behind didn`t. I`m talking tool jobs. A SUV asspacks a Ranger at 65 MPH and sends it into the woods 30 yards. Head-on at highway speed. Antifreeze, tranny fluid, gasoline all over the road.....You know.."that" kind of MVC. Jobs where the FD is cutting the roof off or the rollover into a ditch......
Is it common SOP to at least pull a line? Maybe even charge that line? I have run with several other departments in the region, all have pulled a line before the IC lets us approach the vehicles that are crashed. Maybe my local FD knows something the others don`t. They are afterall, the BEST in the region. Just ask them.
Now, I fault command for my tongue in cheek question. To the man, the guys are great. When we have called for assists from this FD, they guys again are fantastic. The ones that show up, the ones that seem to "be better than everyone else" only show up at fires. As an orginazation, it treats EMS or rescue/EMS in general as idiots. Many many times I have witnessed NON medically trained personell tending to patients in cars while we are told to stand back. Yes, we have full PPE.
From what I have read, a line is called for in the situations I explained. Am I wrong here? It`s MY ass there on the road exposed to the hazzards. Not only mine, my PATIENT`S as well.
I know I`m just pissing up a tree here, Nothing I can do to fix my concerns. Any ideas?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Michael Rocke on -
We always bring a dry chem extinguisher off the truck with us. If there are fluids present, we pull a line.
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Permalink Reply by Truckie Jay on -
Water can and irons on all MVC's here and charged attack line on the ground before extrication tools touch a vehicle with entrapment MVC's here. And it's not just my dept, area wide and trained statewide to have a hoseline on the ground before beginning extrication begins. As to whether it's charged or not depends on the department. Uncharged hoselines have a FF on the nozzle and a D/O at the pump panel. Charged typically is the case, but charged pump in recirc with a FF on the nozzle.
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Permalink Reply by Paul Montpetit on
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Well...first off it is the Chief"s call or the IC on what does and what doesn't get "pulled"...and 2nd...Why not discuss your concerns with those involved instead of whining about it here...? Personally I like the idea of not only "pulling" a line but having it charged as well....BUT...I am not, nor do I ever want to be a Chief...Sorry to come across like this but I believe that if you are not willing to become a part of the solution then you have no right to bitch about the problem....Stay safe....Keep the faith..........Paul
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Permalink Reply by Ralph L. Carr IV on -
Paul,
I talked to command about the topic. I was told, you are EMS we are Fire! "You do your` job, we`ll do our`s" The thing is, they are not doing there job. It is like talking to a brick wall. This is the same command that doesn`t "belive" in rehab. It`s a sad tude to have. One day and I hope it never comes, that attitude will bite them in the ass.
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Permalink Reply by Joe Stoltz on -
Our SOP is like many others - pull a 1 3/4 line and have it manned and ready during and after extrication. If there is an obvious fuel spill we will also hook up an in-line foam eductor and have a pail of Class B handy.
It sounds like you touched a nerve with your question, and the IC realized you were right and he was wrong - but could not admit it to an "EMS type".
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Permalink Reply by Ralph L. Carr IV on
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Joe,
I just moved to the area 2 years ago. I was told "this is how it`s been done for years here, it`s how it will continue to be run"........sigh......I came from an area near by Lt Shane`s. The crews there "do it by the book"......sure, heads get butted from time to time, but the job is done right.
My biggest concern on any scene is SAFETY! Mine, my brother`s and my patient`s. Sure, wear a "everybody goes home" sticker on your helemet, yet don`t wear a seatbelt? Drive like a total idiot to a scene? Well, it`s how it`s been done for year here. So I`ve been told.
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Permalink Reply by Joe Stoltz on
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"That's the way we've always done it, and that's the way we'll always do it, I guess..." Yeah, I have gotten that response a time or two before. This is the basis for the saying "The fire service - 200 years of tradition unimpeded by progress."
Having read many of the posts here on FFN I believe that most departments have been enlightened as to members' safety. Unfortunately, some still remain in the past and hopefully they won't need a tragic event to change their operating methods.
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Permalink Reply by Reg Mathis on -
SOP for us is "if there is any chance that a spark could be created that might be cause of ignition for ANY reason", we pull a line and charge it. It remains manned until all extrication work is complete.
TCSS
Reg
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Permalink Reply by James Hawk on -
my departments sog reads:
Engine 411 or Engine 412 shall take a safe position at least 100 ft from the involved vehicle(s) and lay a single handline of 1 1/2" or larger. the apparatus shall be positioned as a barrier, taking at least 1/2 lane, in width, more than the incident.
also:
PEH is not an EMS provider. Its full duty at moter vehicle accidents shall be to secure the scene, stand-by for potential fire situations, and provide manpower assistance to EMS personnel if reguested.
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on -
Similar to most here, if the jaws get pulled out, so does a line.
As for the medical trained personel told to stand back, I disagree. We incorporate EMS with our dept, so it is a non-issue here, but if the EMT is equipped with PPE, there is no reason they can't do pt care.
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Permalink Reply by Jeff Gaudio on -
The way it is in my city, the fire department arrives on scene and performs multiple tasks. Full turnout gear is always to be worn no matter how minor the mvc is. If it's as you described, we'll stabilize the car, immediately disconnect the battery to the vehicle, throw oil-dry on spilled fluids all while our trash line is getting stretched out from the front bumper of our rescue that will flow foam. We have medically trained firefighters (EMTs and Paramedics) that will assist EMS in any way possible. We provide vehicle extrication and our rescue and special services are equipped with extrication tools as well as full BLS equipment...jump-kit, longboard, O2, collar bag with straps, collars tape etc.
We work really well with the EMS and police. So things usually fall into place on emergency incidents. Infact, it's common for both EMS personnel to have patient care in the back while a firefighter drives the ambulance.
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Permalink Reply by Ralph L. Carr IV on
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Jeff,
Yep, that`s how I understand it is "supposed" to happen. One exception though. Our company policy does not allow non-employees to drive our cars. There was an incident and well, from what I understand, it didn`t turn out well for all involved. Saying that, when we need a hand in back, all of the rescue departments in the county have EMT`s and MFR`s and they will assist in back.
The crash that really brought this all about, the one I`ve been stewin about was 2 weeks ago. A glancing head-on, the minivan that was leaking any fluid imaginable also had a battery just hanging by it`s cables outside the car. (I had forgot to put that in my rant story).....(dementia??) The battery was not secured until the wrecker driver got on scene and the driver secured it himself.
I thank everyone for their input. I`m pretty sure I wasn`t wrong for wondering why they don`t seem to follow general procedures for this type crash.
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