Medic's carrying a pistol????

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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on October 8, 2008 at 11:36pm

Billy,

The term that the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, Office of Domestic Preparedness uses is "Civil Disturbance". I've worked a few of them myself, although admittedly not on the scale of the L.A. riots - either the 1967 Watts version or the Rodney King verdict version.

Why isn't not responding to fires during a riot without police protection not an option?
Is there some rule that firefighters must commit suicide just to extinguish fires that primarily involve property? Is there something that makes it OK for firefighters to break the law, just because a riot is going on?

In one of the riots I worked (unnamed southeastern city much earlier in my career) the Mayor, the Police Chief, and the Fire Chief called a press conference, set up a large-scale city map, drew a red line around a 40 or 50-block area, and told the people within that area that they had no access to city services includeing fire, police, or EMS until further notice. In other words, there was no expectation that the firefighters and medics had to engage in suicidal behavior.

Why should police failures - or failures to get National Guard help in a timely manner - be used as an excuse to let firefighters go armed, or to engage in suicidal behavior? A fire that you have to shoot your way in to - or out of - is a Born Loser by definition.

The lesson learned from the King verdict riots was that when you have an internationally-followed, emotionally-charged court case, that the police department needs to be ramped up for a variety of possible consequences. The LAPD did not do that. The other lesson learned was that a LAFD firefighter was shot while driving a ladder truck through the disturbance area without police protection, and that he was lucky to survive. The fact that LAFD firefighters survived some of the situations into which they went was sheer luck. We're not supposed to depend on luck for personal survival. See my blog on "Does your apparatus have a good luck compartment?" for more on this.

That's why we see "TCSS" as a closing comment on so many posts here on FFN, instead of "Good Luck".

Ben

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Permalink Reply by BillySFCVFD on October 9, 2008 at 11:45am

Right on Ben. I hoping for a textbook perfect world too. TCSS

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Permalink Reply by Brian D. on October 9, 2008 at 6:14pm

"Why isn't not responding to fires during a riot without police protection not an option?
Is there some rule that firefighters must commit suicide just to extinguish fires that primarily involve property?" - Ben Waller

Great point, Ben. Basic firefighting 101- Scene safety. Just as we stage until Law Enforcement secures the scene of a domestic disturbance, we should stage until they secure an incident in an area of civil unrest. There's no law requiring FF's to risk getting shot, stabbed, etc. to put out a fire! Stay safe people!

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Permalink Reply by anna m mills on September 14, 2009 at 10:49pm

some of our areas that we respond to do have bullet proof vest but no guns and as many have pointed out very smartly so. it would just be a problem that i feel i dont need to have as a extra responsiblity to me
someone taking it from me and the whole host of other reasons that were pointed out prior

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Permalink Reply by Alan on May 3, 2009 at 8:43pm

Wearing firearms with potentially explosive ammunition under turnout gear is a really bad idea. It adds bulk and can't be accessed, at best. At worst, the ammo may explode if exposed to heat. Wearing explosives on your body and entering a high heat area equals a really bad idea.

In reference to this quote above. I DO NOT support the carrying of firearms by Fire/ems personnel. However, If a department is going to allow this I believe that for the reasons stated above i.e. the explosives issue there should be some type of sop stating that in a fire situation this article be removed and locked in a gun box on the apparatus. In my department Fire/Ems personnel may carry oc spray however, the individual wishing to carry must go through the proper training with a certified instructor. Also the sop states that you must use all means necessary to keep the situation from going to that level. But once it is deployed you must give medical attention to the individual that it was deployed on. Also the sop states that this will be removed and locked in the lock boxes on the apparatus while entering a fire building or possible fire situation. This includes fire alarm activations.

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Permalink Reply by Scamehorn on October 8, 2008 at 11:44pm

Stupid...Stupid...Stupid....Thats why I'm a found believer in the use of the blue(PD)/Brown(SO) canaries. They are firearm certified. They are trained to deal with violent situations... Let them take care of it... Than you can safely do your job.

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Permalink Reply by Captain Busy on October 9, 2008 at 1:08am

1. Firefighters are the good guys. Repeat... we are the good guys.
2. Good guys don't carry guns.
3. Live by the sword, and you will die from the sword.
4. There were countless cases of local citizens coming to the aid of firefighters and medics.

Why? Because we are the good guys. : )

"Kill them with kindness, not firearms..."

TCSS, Mike

Oh yea, after the LA Riots, every one of our engines have been issued four flack vests for each engine. Lots of things can produce unrest and civil violence. For those in larger metropolitan cities, this may become a reality before you would like it to happen... Even rural areas need to be vigilant with soft targets such as elementary schools and churches being considered targets by terrorists.

We have a different reality living within the 100-mile radius of Los Angeles, CA... but we DON"T carry guns. We let law enforcement folks, even park rangers provide our necessary firepower when needed...


"Engine 18, respond to a reported suicidal subject with a gun at... Copy dispatch, please respond law enforcement and make contact with State Parks Rangers... The officers found the subject, very dead but cleared the way prior to my allowing my personnel to enter. We all went home, well all of us but one...

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Permalink Reply by Michael Vito on October 9, 2008 at 5:52am

Amen, Mike.

It is one of my personal fears in which far more greater than the fire itself. For 10 years of volunteer service I thank God I never experience being threatened or pointed with a knife, a jungle bolo, or a gun. These things happen when you respond to a heavily populated squatter or depressed areas made of light materials. When fires goes of control like a urban version wildland fires. In which a panic mode residents insist of training our hoses to their house which a bit farther away from the fully involve area itself. SWAT teams and security forces are not quick enough to provide backup or out numbered. Some of my friends did experience and got injured and shot at. So some FF's have a personal gun hidden their turnouts. But we all indoctrinated, as good guys. Never Never ever use it. Unless as a last resort - warning shot. Then dropped the nozzle and hoseline, then pull out and (sadly) let it burn. Reposition or comeback until the area is secured.

The ironic part is, when fire is under control and cooler heads prevail. Residents in which of most them was saved from the ravages of fires, and also who appreciate our effort. Gave us food, drinks, and Thanking us. For me that is the best part in the operation.

But I did experienced having a tug of war of hoses with residents or they try to snatch my nozzle. Good thing recently, its good thing the police, swat teams and traffic enforcers are trying to catch up with us and just in time of protection.

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Permalink Reply by Brian D. on October 9, 2008 at 6:16pm

"Live by the sword, and you will die from the sword." - Mike Schlags

That's why I don't carry swords either! LOL

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Permalink Reply by T.J. on October 10, 2008 at 7:40am

I totally understand your point Mike, I believe it to........................ you sound like you may have read the bible:)

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Permalink Reply by Brent Morey on October 9, 2008 at 5:19am

Wow! I see alot of you are not for guns. Does any one have a CCW? Why couldn't you carry open. Michigan is an open carry state. I know many of the states in the south are also. Even carry conceled, why wouldn't you be able to aim and shoot. You need to practice. You can't buy a gun and hope it works. If there is someone with "bad intent" they don't care who they shoot. Having a big red fire truck with a bunch of lights on it is a great target. Plus they know you are unlikely to shoot back. Wearing a weapon under turnout gear has never been an issue. Ask the Public Safety Officers (police,fire,ems). Shooting someone- gives you something to do. and puts you into overtime. Just kidding. Remember the first rule, your safety. Cops don't carry any offensive protection. Everything is for defessive. Oh, and just because you are shot, doesn't mean you are dead. If someone has the chance to shoot you, means police isn't there. Who is going to deffend you while you find your white hat and call for P.D.? I have worked in Detroit as EMS. I wished I wish I had a gun at the time. I have gone to calls for a simple DIB and had to disarm PTs. I'm not sure where everyone is from. Here we don't have police everytime you need them. And I believe it is the dispatcher 101 school that says leave out important information and make sure most medicals are "unknown medical". Any firefighter that is worth something is usually volunteer/paid on call. I carry a gun everyday. I don't plan my day to leave my gun at home 'cause I might have a call. You won't have police everytime you go somewhere. And not every call has a flag to have PD show up before you. There are more people out there with guns than those without. If you carry a gun you need to train with it. Having a vest doesn't make you bullet proof. If that was the case, cops woundn't need them and military personel wouldn't be dying. I always say, an armed community is a safe community. Just my though everyone. I'm sure someone will disagree with me. The times are coming where fire/ems are going to be unresticted when it comes to carrying a gun. I just know most departments won't allow it because of liability. But, since 2001 there have only been a handful of unjustified shooting where the bad guy had a CCW.

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Permalink Reply by T.J. on October 10, 2008 at 7:43am

I here you Brent, I'm from Northern Michigan and I've got a CCW, and if I feel I need to wear it then "I WILL DO JUST THAT!!! I'm sorry if that affents people but it is our right.

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