Firefighting & Rescue Social / Professional Network
Medic's carrying a pistol????
I know down by Detroit there are medic's carrying pistols for protection and even bullet proof jackets, but does anyone else know of city's that are doing the same thing or even fire departments that have some sort of protection like a bullet proof jacket. this seems to be a growing concern out there for everyone, just wanted to see your view on this issue.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Capt 723 on -
I just read an article in FIRE ENGINEERING that some department was receiving a grant to provide their FF personnel with vests to be carried on the apparatus.
Vest are fine, but medics and FF should not be carrying weapons while responding to an emergency.
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Permalink Reply by BillySFCVFD on -
Back during the last Los Angeles riots, FFs were shot and shot at while responding. Some packed their own shooting irons for their lives. Rather be tried by 12 then carried by 6. Of course that was chaos then. Pistol packing is not in our job description but having a police escort, if needed, is. Crazy world huh? TCSS
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Permalink Reply by Butterbean on -
your right,i'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6. amen
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Permalink Reply by Damon Dyer on -
Im with you Billy .
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Permalink Reply by John Menchen on -
I had a fire instructor put it this way: "We may have all the coolest toys in the world, but on a questionable scene, let the guys with the guns go first."
Yes, our safety is #1, and I'd never fault anyone for defending their lives in a period of grave civil upheaval (if that works) with their own guns--last I knew, the 2nd Amendment was still in effect, like it or not. But we have to keep in mind: that's a serious exception, not the general rule.
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Permalink Reply by Walter Messer on -
we have vests in our rescue trucks
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Permalink Reply by Joe Stoltz on -
This came up a while ago here on FFN but I think the discussion was deleted.
Thankfully, we don't worry about that too much in these parts. The county 911 center does a great job of gathering info and gauging potentially threatening scenes before dispatching the appropriate agencies. We are typically alerted to stand by at the station while the sheriff's deputies arrive at, and clear the scene.
I don't see the need for us to pack pistols. Vests might be nice but again unnecessary here.
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Permalink Reply by Brian D. on -
I noticed that we have some bullet proof vests up in our supply loft. I think they're extras from the P.D. Don't ask me why they're not on our vehicles. I know of an ajoining town that has 2 vests on each ambulance and 3 on each fire apparatus. It's a crazy world! As far as packing heat, I say NO!
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Permalink Reply by Kenneth Holley on
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Sometimes we are sent to domestic/fight calls. Unless the scene is secure by local law enforcement we sit a safe distance down the street. My life and my brothers and sisters are more important than a saturday night drunk beating up on their family.
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Permalink Reply by Alan on -
Sometimes the incident extends out into the street. As a 911 dispatcher I have dispatched several domestics that yes did in fact start at the actual address and in the actual house. However prior to arrival of any units they must have taken the situation to the street and units arrived to find themselves in the middle of it. Staging is great but sometimes that just doesn't work. I'm all for the vest however I am against the firearms, unless of course you are in a situation of mass chaos such as the LA riots. Then you gotta do what you gotta do.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on -
Firefighters or medics carrying firearms is a bad idea for a host of reasons.
1) You can't carry them openly, which means that when you need them, it will be difficult to draw them in time to get off an aimed shot.
2) Armed medics become a much bigger target for people with bad intent. I've worked projects, riots, and lots of other bad situations for over 30 years. I've never been in a situation where being armed would have made the situation better.
3) There is a big difference between defensive protection (body armor) and offensive protection (weapons). For one thing, body armor can't be taken away and used against you by someone else. A firearm can. Remember that a significant number of police officers are shot with their own weapons. We don't need to add firefighters or medics to those statistics.
4) Virtually every firefighter and medic that has been shot in the line of duty was shot from ambush. If the bad guy shoots you first, you'll just be armed but dead.
5) Wearing firearms with potentially explosive ammunition under turnout gear is a really bad idea. It adds bulk and can't be accessed, at best. At worst, the ammo may explode if exposed to heat. Wearing explosives on your body and entering a high heat area equals a really bad idea.
6) The worst part of firefighters or medics going armed is the loss of public trust in us staying "on mission". The first time a medic or firefighter shoots a civilian, the bad guys are going to assume that we're all armed, and that will be open season on us.
7) If you shoot someone during a fire or EMS response, you've just diverted yourself away from your mission, and you've violated one of our cardinal rules. That rule is "Never create additional patients".
8) If you shoot someone during an EMS response, you'll have to treat that patient or at least declare the patient dead. You won't be able to leave the scene legally until it's investigated, and anything you do to alter the scene may be legally construed as evidence tampering.
The answer to firefighter and medic protection from violent crime consists of four things. The first is a strong and administrative-backed staging policy. If there's violence involved at the scene, the cops go in first, period. That goes for shootings, stabbings, suicides, assaults, domestic violence, DOAs, and any other potential crime/violent scene. It also includes every fire and every medical call in high-crime areas. The second thing is for the firefighters to maintain situational awareness. Roll up without lights and sirens on violent crimes, ODs, etc. and keep a window down as you approach. That will let you hear angry voices, shots, or other audible cues that may not be heard with the windows up and the siren on. Pay attention - if something looks out of place or wierd, it probably is. The third thing is to have a written "Bail Out" that specifically states that it is permissible to abandon a fire scene, emergency scene, or patient to save your own life. The fourth thing is to issue body armor if you really need it. I used to work for an EMS/Rescue system that issued EMS-type body armor, Threat Level IIA. It would stop most of the handgun rounds we saw. This armor was interior layers of an EMS-type load-bearing vest that had Star of Life logos front and back, pockets for scissors, stethoscope, exam gloves, medical tape, etc, and was worn over the uniform. We wore it when responding to high-risk calls, at our own option. We issued two vests of each size (S-M-L-XL) to each unit. That kept costs down when compared to issuing personal armor to all employees.
Blindly entering shooting/stabbing/assault scenes, running lights and siren into the middle of a civil disturbance, and not staging until the police have the scene secure fall into the category of "Running into a Born Loser". We need to stay out of Born Losers that are caused by armed and violent people as well as the ones caused by fires and hazardous chemicals. Staging away from violent scenes until the police secure them will prevent the need to carry firearms and will eliminate either the need for either being tried by 12 or being carried by 6.
Ben
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Permalink Reply by BillySFCVFD on
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Ben,
That all sounds good on paper. I am in no way endorsing firearms carried by fire/ems personnel and didn't previously. 12 by 6 was my quote and you used it so I am responding. Civil disturbance is too way nice to describe the LA riots. I was there and the police were thin and the fires were thick. Not responding to the many fires was not an option. Those dedicated fire fighters did what they needed to serve and survive. Was it legal, no, was it right, well, they survived. We all hope that is never repeated. Lessons learned from LA and other rioting cities helped us all be better prepared using law enforcement and defense tactics as you described. Thank you for your post, keep it up. I'm keeping it short and concise for the effect. TCSS
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