2 In, 2 Out- Clarification

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Permalink Reply by Rescue601 on January 9, 2009 at 3:30pm

Straight from OSHA.



1910.134(g)(4)

Procedures for interior structural firefighting. In addition to the requirements set forth under paragraph (g)(3), in interior structural fires, the employer shall ensure that:

1910.134(g)(4)(i)

At least two employees enter the IDLH atmosphere and remain in visual or voice contact with one another at all times;

1910.134(g)(4)(ii)

At least two employees are located outside the IDLH atmosphere; and

1910.134(g)(4)(iii)

All employees engaged in interior structural firefighting use SCBAs.

Note 1 to paragraph (g): One of the two individuals located outside the IDLH atmosphere may be assigned to an additional role, such as incident commander in charge of the emergency or safety officer, so long as this individual is able to perform assistance or rescue activities without jeopardizing the safety or health of any firefighter working at the incident.

Note 2 to paragraph (g): Nothing in this section is meant to preclude firefighters from performing emergency rescue activities before an entire team has assembled.

Permalink Reply by FireCaptain72 on January 9, 2009 at 3:44pm

Lutan,

Check out NFPA 1500 and of course the Osha standard listed below. Ohio also has something close to the OSHA standard the Ohio Administrative Code (OAC)

The 2 in 2 out has less to do with the numbers and more to do with an adhoc RIT available during interior firefighting without life safety hazard. In cases of KNOWN life safety there is a exception to 2 in 2 out.

But to your question... as listed below in the OSHA standard 5 could be in and you would still need 2 out.
Tt does state at least two in... 3, 4 or 5 is atleast 2.... and if that is the case then at least 2 need to be out..



1910.134(g)(4)(i)

At least two employees enter the IDLH atmosphere and remain in visual or voice contact with one another at all times;

1910.134(g)(4)(ii)

At least two employees are located outside the IDLH atmosphere; and

Stay Safe

FireCaptain72

Permalink Reply by lutan1 on January 9, 2009 at 3:56pm

Thanks guys for the info.

Being from Oz, we don't comply with NFPA or OSHA, so that might be why we do the 2 go in, 2 come out rule instead of what you have listed....

Permalink Reply by Rescue601 on January 9, 2009 at 4:01pm

Yeah, sometimes due to the size of the structure we send 3 or 4 people in and are only required to have 2 on standby. However, as the interior guys go through air at different rates we often swap people in and out. The key is that there is at least 2 on the inside and at least 2 on the outside.

We usually form a 4 man RIT team as soon as possible that is divided into two man teams. Thus we can more effectively manage any issues.

Permalink Reply by FireCaptain72 on January 9, 2009 at 5:20pm

Ohio is not an OSHA state either. We (the Ohio fire service) do not have to follow OSHA or NFPA for that matter. But always remember these are both national standards that will be brought up in a court of law no matter where you live as a "standard". If you can not meet NFPA or OSHA you should have a good explaination as to way not, or atleast list the things you are trying to do to meet these standards.

We all know that many of our decisions today are based on limiting our liability in post incident court cases.

No matter how you do 2 in 2 out. The basic premis of having at least a 2 firefighters outside of the IDLH, makes sense and is there for our safety.

Stay Safe,

FireCaptain72

Permalink Reply by Lt. Caleb French on January 9, 2009 at 5:27pm

My fellow Ohioan hit the nail right on the head. We do not have to follow OSHA or NFPA, but it is a good idea to just do it anyways.

Permalink Reply by lutan1 on January 9, 2009 at 5:51pm

As I said, ours is more about maintaining a "buddy" system and maintaining communicaitons, contact, etc with each other

Permalink Reply by Tony P on January 9, 2009 at 8:57pm

And to clarify what lutan has said, 'Oz' isn't a state of the USA. So 'NFPA' and 'OSHA' have no relevance. We do have our own Occ Health & Safety laws of course. And they are laws, not standards or guidelines.

For internal firefighting, we usually have teams of two FF's. As soon as numbers arrive on-scene we try to have a crew standing by outside with BA donned but not started. Can't always happen unfortunately. And a difference to what has been stated above - when one member notices that his/her air pressure is getting low, then both come out and have a drink and a rest before fitting fresh tanks. We also work under the system of your low air warning shouldn't go off until you are outside the building, we train to keep an eye on our own air and on how long it will take to leave the structure. For us, waiting until the whistle blows means you have too little air left.

Permalink Reply by Trainer on January 9, 2009 at 4:01pm

2 in 2 out, 2 inside, 2 ready to go in, that was my take. After the last command class I had, the outside crew at least 1 should be packed, the other can be the oic.

Permalink Reply by Lt. Caleb French on January 9, 2009 at 5:05pm

2 in, 2 out was always taught to me as RIT ops. 2 go in, 2 are at the door ready to go in for a mayday situation.

Permalink Reply by lutan1 on January 9, 2009 at 5:47pm

A bit more digging brings up the following:

http://www.iaff.org/hs/PDF/2in2out.pdf

http://www.firefighterclosecalls.com/drills/FCC%20Vol%205-59%202-In...

http://www.osfc.state.pa.us/osfc/lib/osfc/2_in_-_2_out_Policy.pdf

Still not appliacble to us (in terms of the law as we're not U.S.), but some food for thought....

Permalink Reply by reece on January 9, 2009 at 6:16pm

the way i take it is, however many you have in, thats how many are outside ready to go. full ppe

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